r/todayilearned • u/Legitimate_Berry_433 • 11h ago
TIL that a New Jersey statute prohibits most retailers from possessing more than two retail alcohol distribution licenses, thus making it difficult for chain stores to sell alcoholic beverages
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_laws_of_New_Jersey39
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u/CaptainMobilis 8h ago
Liquor laws seem to just arbitrarily suck in various annoying ways depending on the state (and sometimes even the county). In Pennsylvania, for instance, you cannot buy beer in a liquor store or at a gas station, you have to go to a grocery store and buy it one six-pack at a time. In Texas, you can buy beer almost anywhere until a hard cut-off at midnight, but liquor can only be sold at liquor stores, except on Sunday, any major holiday (including July 4th), or after 9:00pm. And that's assuming you don't live in a "dry" county, which can prohibit or limit the sale of booze in various concentrations, to varying degrees, along invisible lines in any state. I hear Utah's on some crazy shit, too.
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u/foley23 8h ago
Couple clarifications on PA's beer laws.
You can get beer at some Wawa's and that's been expanding, there's 2 within 5 minutes of me that do. Both them and grocery stores are limited to a maximum of 192 oz per transaction, so a 12 pack and and some singles.
They are allowed to do so by a loophole. Basically Wawa's and Grocery store chains are scooping up restaurant liquor licenses. Under that law, takeout beer is allowed. What happens is, the store has to provide some sort of seating inside, and then sub register an address as a restaurant that the license is attached to.
The biggest problem with that is, it's skyrocketing the price of liquor licenses pricing out new restaurants. Each county is limited to 1 license per 5000 people.
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u/gheebutersnaps87 4h ago
As a kid I remember visiting family up there (Ohio and Pennsylvania) and my parents would always buy beer in these weird drive through convince stores things- idk how to describe them, like if you took the shape of a covered bridge and lined it with refrigerators and snacks
Is that related to any laws or just a northern cultural thing?
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u/gitismatt 7h ago
PA used to be two six packs at a time. imagine an entire fraternity going ot the pizza shop on sunday and walking out with two sixers each
UT is on some crazy shit but it's also strangely not bad. ive been to breweries where I didnt have to buy food, been to a speakeasy. been to a gay bar with heavy pours. SLC was surprisingly fun and not at all void of drinking options.
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u/black_flag_4ever 11h ago
Okay, but couldn't businesses skirt around this by creating a bunch of LLCs where the primary owner is the main company and then do business under the chain's name? For Example, a fictional company called King of Kings Liquor starts an LLC called KKL2 and then files a d/b/a and operates as King of Kings Liquor so that it complies with the law, yet customers don't know the difference?
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u/Legitimate_Berry_433 11h ago
You are correct! And yes, many business owners resort to these methods of creating different LLCs to skirt around the statute, however this can be inconvenient for many, especially for smaller retail chains.
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u/robby_synclair 7h ago
Not in oklahoma. It's pinned to the owner of the business. The owner must also live in the state.
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u/Fetlocks_Glistening 10h ago
So... the big supermarkets don't sell whisky and wine??
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u/Headytexel 10h ago
No, supermarkets can’t sell wine or liquor. Those that do, have to do so in a separate liquor store.
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u/RollUpTheRimJob 8h ago
Wegmans has a massive alcohol section though
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u/Headytexel 8h ago
Where? The only Wegmans I’ve been to have a completely separate liquor store near the supermarket, but not a part of it.
I’ve never seen wine or liquor for sale inside a supermarket in NJ.
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u/RollUpTheRimJob 8h ago
Princeton
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u/Headytexel 8h ago
I haven’t been to that one. Is this it?
https://www.supermarketnews.com/grocery-operations/wegmans-opens-its-first-liquor-store-in-n-j-
According to the article, the liquor store is next to the supermarket rather than a section inside it. Has that changed?
The 13,375-square-foot store is located next to a Wegmans supermarket…New Jersey law prohibits selling wine and liquor in the supermarket, although grocery stores can sell beer.
Edit: According to another comment, the law may have changed? I haven’t run into one that has yet, but maybe it’s now legal.
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u/RollUpTheRimJob 8h ago
I think so. They have a pretty extensive selection too https://maps.app.goo.gl/JqREAt56keraQf4c6
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u/Starbucks__Lovers 7h ago
Bridgewater and Princeton IIRC. The rest has a separate, connected wine shop
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u/Nephroidofdoom 7h ago
Princeton. It’s awesome and like a full third of the store.
Likewise with Edison,Costco.
At least now I understand why each chain only has one.
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u/barbaq24 10h ago
Yes but no. There’s more to it. Historically the only stores that sell any packaged alcohol in NJ are liquor stores. We call them liquor stores but they sell beer, wine and all spirits. It’s a one stop shop of all alcohol. We don’t have any alcohol in convenience stores or supermarkets for the most part.
About 10 years ago a law changed and some supermarkets started carrying alcohol. I have no idea the rhyme or reason but some newer supermarkets sell beer, wine and liquor. It’s rare and weird for NJ. It was more common to see a supermarket branded liquor store next to a supermarket with a separate entrance etc. Like A&P Liquors or Shoprite Liquors.
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u/jamesonbar 7h ago
We have drivethough liquor stores here in Missouri and no state open container law
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u/bhambrewer 10h ago
Always entertaining for me with states with objectively worse alcohol regulations than my adopted home of Alabama.
So long as you are zoned "wet" (the vast majority of the state), any retail/food/gas store is eligible to apply for an alcohol retail licence. This only covers fermented beverages, liquor is via either private or state owned liquor stores. The independent liquor stores are a little more expensive but they are also open much longer hours than the state stores which tend to close around 6pm or 7pm, depending on area.
Side note: our breweries and brewpubs can sell up to 6.75 gallons of beer per customer per day to go. Yes, kegs to go are legal (if the brewery wants to do that).
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u/erichie 8h ago
After living in a bunch of states I vastly prefer NJ's rules on alcohol.
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u/PapaSteveRocks 7h ago
Sensible nonsense as opposed to Pennsylvania’s complete nonsense liquor sales laws.
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u/XK8lyn88x 1h ago
I’ve never heard a limit on the amount of beer a customer can buy a day to-go. In NJ bars can sell kegs to-go also if they willing or want to. I’d imagine it’s like that in most places.
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u/trymypi 10h ago
Many counties in Maryland do this too, but not all
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u/name-__________ 7h ago
Maryland has some of the strictest alcohol laws with regards to where it’s sold.
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u/gitismatt 7h ago
if you want to dig into obscure liquor license laws, look into PA and their "resort town" designation
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u/Galvanized-Sorbet 7h ago
In North Carolina there are no commercial liquor stores as all such sales are done through the network of Alcoholic Beverage Control (ABC) stores. They are managed by local boards which have a significant amount of power in what is sold and how and when, but they are overseen by the state. It’s a pretty complicated setup
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u/Danny_Notion 5h ago
Seems weird when it feels like there are 500 Chili's and 500 Applebee's in the state getting people loaded as we speak.
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u/Work_Werk_Wurk 4h ago
Ahhh that explains why Costco in Wayne is the only one with liquor in Bergen County.
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u/Tennisfan1976 15m ago
Wayne is Passaic county. The Costco in Teterboro sells alcohol but it’s a separate outside entrance & its selection isn’t as strong as Costcos that sell alcohol inside its buildings.
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u/oneandonlytoney 8h ago
Same in Oklahoma. And it can’t be a corporation, only individuals are issued licenses for their businesses.
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u/Teknicsrx7 6h ago
We have Bottle King in NJ they have 10+ locations
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u/TheRealThordic 6h ago
Franchised.
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u/Teknicsrx7 6h ago
Is a franchise not a chain?
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u/TheRealThordic 6h ago
A corporate owned chain means the parent corporation owns all the individual stores. Think big chain stores like Best Buy, Macys, etc.
A franchise may have some locations owned by the parent corporation but most locations are owned by people who buy into the company and own/operate their location independently (but pay franchise fees to the parent corporation). Lots of fast food places operate this way - McDonalds, Dunkin, etc.
Bottle King Corporate owns Livingston and I believe Princeton (I could be wrong), the other locations are owned by other people. I believe some Bottle King's are owned by the same family and some are owned by the owners friends/investors, so it's not exactly a franchise you can buy into like Dunkin but it's the same concept. A lot of liquor chains in NJ operate similarly to get around the 2-license rule (Wine Traders, Garys, Joe Canals, etc.).
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u/Teknicsrx7 6h ago
Ahhh ok that makes sense I hadn’t considered them being viewed as individual owner s
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u/TheRealThordic 6h ago
Its definitely a bit of a loophole but unless you have no family / friends anyone with the cash to expand can exploit it.
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u/scyber 6h ago
Another interesting aspect of NJ liquor laws is that each municipality gets a specific number of licenses based on its population. But the amount per population was reduced a number of years ago. So there are some licenses that are grandfathered in and if they expire, they can't be reissued. This means liquor licenses are often ridiculously priced. I remember there was a dive bar on a major highway that was for sale years ago. The building and property were for sale for $250k. The liquor license was for sale for $750k.
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u/mandy009 4h ago
most of these laws are meant to restrict the alcohol market. that's the point. we're not magically discovering any hidden outcome here.
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u/IMakeMyOwnLunch 1h ago
This isn't the only ridiculous regulatory capture New Jersey has on the books.
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u/PlausibleTable 10h ago
Bigger shock to many is probably not seeing alcohol all over gas stations. When I moved from Jersey I was shocked how single cans of alcohol is so readily available when for someone driving. Seemed like you’re asking for drinking and driving.
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u/Headytexel 8h ago
No idea if it’s related, but NJ also has the lowest rate of DUI-related traffic fatalities in the US.
https://alcohol.org/guides/dui-arrests-fatalities-across-us/
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u/Legitimate_Berry_433 6h ago
And alongside the state of Wisconsin, New Jersey legally classifies DUI’s as traffic violations, rather than being classified as a criminal charge as is throughout the rest of the United States.
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u/sdot1111 8h ago
Another interesting fact is that every restaurant in NJ is BYOB including any chain restaurant.
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u/I_wish_I_was_a_robot 7h ago
Unless they have a bar
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u/sdot1111 6h ago
Yes unless they have a liquor license, not sure why I thought that was assumed but I made an ass out of u and me and Im sorry for that
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u/ScrotieMcP 11h ago
You also still have to pay somebody to pump your gas for you. Happened to me in Oregon, too.
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u/Totally_PJ_Soles 11h ago
In NY we've always had both types of gas station so it always makes me laugh when people get confused about one or the other.
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u/Legitimate_Berry_433 11h ago
New Jersey can be quite an interesting state at times.. though I do enjoy being able to stay in my car and have a gas attendant do the work for me. Has it’s pros and cons, but the pros certainly outweigh the cons during severe weather, especially during the winter
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u/Valathiril 11h ago
Jersey has decently cheap gas I think, just under $3 by me
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u/HumanShadow 7h ago
Yes. Cheap gas AND someone pumps it for you. The only people who get upset by it are angry types
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u/fattylimes 11h ago
You don’t have to “pay somebody” to do it any more than you have to “pay somebody” to make you a coffee at starbucks
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u/CW1DR5H5I64A 11h ago
I mean you’re not legally allowed to pump your own gas, full service is the only option. So no, it’s not like going to Starbucks at all.
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u/Valathiril 11h ago
Wait, I can make my coffee at Starbucks?
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u/CW1DR5H5I64A 11h ago
You can make your coffee at home, you can’t pump your own gas at home. Using choosing to go to Starbucks as an equivalence to choosing to have an attendant pump your gas is stupid because you have no other option to pump your own gas.
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u/ArmpitEchoLocation 11h ago edited 11h ago
You pay someone to serve you gasoline and coffee.
I generally make coffee at home and am required to pump my own fuel.
We are not the same.
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u/ScrotieMcP 11h ago
48 states won't try to arrest you if you pump your own gas. 2 WILL. And if I want decent coffee I sure as hell don't go to Starbucks. Try waiting 20 minutes for a busy clerk in a small town because you need to buy gas.
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u/ardent_wolf 11h ago
It's just a fine, and Oregon made it legal to self serve last year. I can't speak on wait times of every town in NJ because there's like 600 in total.
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u/fattylimes 11h ago
i live in new jersey. i have also seen plenty of people pump their own gas when the attendant is busy and not one of them go to prison
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u/ScrotieMcP 11h ago
Now do it in front of a state trooper. I'll wait.
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u/redink29 7h ago
I went NJ for a week to see family and friends. Restaurants don't sell booze and any restaurants that do are rare.
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u/Hugh_H0n3y 7h ago
Restaurants don’t sell booze and any restaurants that do are rare
This isn’t true at all. Restaurants in Jersey either serve alcohol or it’s BYOB. Not actually rare at all…
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u/redink29 7h ago
Really???? I must have wrong info
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u/TheRealThordic 6h ago
There are plenty of restaurants in NJ that serve alcohol, but there's also a lot that don't. A lot of it has to do with the town you are in as the liquor licensing is not the same in all towns across the state (ie, Rutherford has a ton of restaurants but doesn't grant any liquor licenses so none sell alcohol, they are all BYOB).
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u/SpungyDanglin69 3h ago
As much of an alcoholic I am I do agree it should be more regulated. Let weed be king for a while and regulate alcohol. Me and people like me need regulation
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u/McKoijion 8h ago
They also don’t let you pump your own gas to protect gas pumper jobs.
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u/HumanShadow 7h ago
Trust me, once you go full service, you don't want to go back. It's so nice, plus we're putting people to work.
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u/McKoijion 7h ago
Lol you live of the most famously corrupt parts of America. At least you have a good attitude about it.
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u/HumanShadow 7h ago
We really don't care what people think about that. Our cheap gas makes the cost for full service a non factor. It's so nice, especially in bad weather.
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u/McKoijion 7h ago
This is just one example. There’s a million others.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/09/28/new-jersey-political-corruption-00118484
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u/HumanShadow 7h ago edited 6h ago
I'm really not interested in whatever conversation or debate you're trying to have outside of gas pumping in a r/todayilearned/ comment section
oh god. fucking debate lord over here.
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u/McKoijion 6h ago
This thread isn’t about gas pumping. If you scroll back up to the top, it’s about all the restrictions corrupt New Jersey politicians put on people and businesses in exchange for bribes from special interest groups like tavern leagues and gasoline retailers. Alcohol sales and gas pumping restrictions are just two of many examples. Similarly, Chris Christie and Bob Menendez are just two of many examples of corrupt politicians.
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u/TehWildMan_ 11h ago
Georgia also has a similar law specifically for liquor: No mega chains of liquor stores here either