r/politics • u/seanosul • 9h ago

Missouri executes Marcellus Williams despite prosecutors’ push to overturn conviction

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/24/missouri-executes-marcellus-williams
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u/WhyCantIStopReddit Missouri 9h ago

But no forensic evidence linked Williams to the murder weapon or crime scene, and as local prosecutors have renounced his conviction, the victim’s family and several trial jurors also said they opposed his execution.

This is so unbelievably fucked up.

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u/Technical_Bid990 9h ago

There should be no doubt when something as final as death is involved. This man seemed to have found some level of mental health in prison, turning to God and poetry. I can’t say if he was a good or bad person, but if I lived in Missouri, I’d want to be certain that if the state could legally execute me, I was 100% guilty. 

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u/WhyCantIStopReddit Missouri 9h ago

And this is why the death penalty should be abolished.

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u/SpaceTimeinFlux 8h ago

It is utterly motivated by bronze age bullshit. Evangelicals love the "Retribution" part but conveniently forget the rest.

Another casualty of American Jesus.

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u/Original_Contact_579 7h ago

People love retribution cause they truly don’t understand the horrors of it. They also dont understand how quickly they could be in a situation this. They dont know how easy you can lose your life unconvicted in a place like rikers jail. They also think that our justice system provides them safety, it would, if it was not a permanent boot to the neck of every felon that is released, they can never break free and return to crime. Also the simple fact that jail or prison bankrupts people

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u/bruhhrrito 7h ago

People love retribution cause they truly don’t understand the horrors of it.

Then, you meet the people who cherry pick. "Well, I believe in it for some." While that's a higher moral ground it's not practical in these real life situations. You're either with it for all, or you're not.

Does it suck knowing there are horrible, disgusting people who "deserve" to die that are still alive? Absolutely. But it shouldn't be up to us to systemically pick and choose when or how someone dies, regardless of what crimes they've committed.

"I don't want my taxes to go towards someone in prison for life." Life in prison may not satisfy some people but it's actually less expensive than executions. Drugs used for execution are far more expensive to manufacture and prisons + pharma go hand in hand. Keep giving them people to kill, they'll keep making the drugs to kill them.

I'm speaking towards the US, not as global generalizations.

Because look where we are. The prison system and Supreme Court decided to end this man's life even after the people prosecuting him tried to save him. The SC was more than comfortable sending an innocent man to die.

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u/DPPThrow45 6h ago

You'll have a hard time convincing most anyone that Bundy didn't earn what he got.

That being said, the usual process for capital death sentences is at best barbaric.

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u/Glasseshalf 5h ago

Earning what he got and believing the state had the right to do it are two very different things. All the arguments for the death penalty are completely emotional. All facts show that the death penalty is useless. Even if you don't care about the innocents that will inevitably be executed (any system that is a human system is going to be wrong sometimes, there is no way to perfect any justice system to prevent this, only to mitigate the risk of it happening,) the numbers show that it is far more expensive to kill someone than it is to keep them in prison.

Not to mention the non-economic value in keeping these people alive. There have been people who squealed after decades in prison. There have been important breakthroughs in criminal psychology via interviews with the worst of the worst offenders. Maybe in 20 years when a theoretical prisoner's 2 year old daughter is grown it would give her closure to come face to face with him in prison. There are so many possible situations that make it better to keep people alive.

Then there's the barbaric part you were getting at. Doctors won't do it because it's against their oath. So they have to have prison workers do it. Which means they can't use the kind of medicine they use to perform medical euthanasia in countries where that's legal, for example.

It's all just American stupidity and retribution, our infamous desire to push facts to the side when they don't validate our feelings or opinions.

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u/TheUnluckyBard 2h ago

You'll have a hard time convincing most anyone that Bundy didn't earn what he got.

Sure, but for every Bundy, there are a hundred Marcellus Williams's. The real evil of Bundy is that he's been one of the handful of excuses to keep the system that executes innocent people by the dozen. In effect, he's continued to take victims even decades after his death.

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u/Latter_Painter_3616 6h ago

It doesn’t seem horrible that people can live and even be released after doing bad things. No murder victim has ever been brought back to life by executing their killer. I do not understand why people desire to punish or engage in vengeance. I don’t understand it at all. Not even a little.

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u/digitalwankster 6h ago

Because some people show no remorse for their actions and are not fit to live in civil society.

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u/Latter_Painter_3616 5h ago

That still wouldn’t explain vengeance or punishment. In those rare cases we would potentially keep them apart from the rest of society, but in comfort and reasonably fair surroundings and not because we delight in vengeance or punishment. For its own sake.

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u/DSouT 4h ago

That’s not much of a deterrent now is it.

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u/Latter_Painter_3616 4h ago

Deterrents aren’t very effective at all on the sociopathic persons you reference

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u/DSouT 4h ago

Wasn’t really talking about sociopaths, more of your comment that jail should be comfortable and fair. Being soft on crime doesn’t work. Even SF and New York City are rolling back these practices.

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u/suckarepellent 4h ago

it should be fair, not comfortable. But not inhumane. inmates shouldn't be denied medical care or subjected to slave labor, for example. that's not soft.

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u/Latter_Painter_3616 4h ago

New York has a lower crime rate than most small towns. And what about tough on crime ever worked? Every study has disproven this logic. It’s just reactionary fear politics every time.

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u/badger0511 Michigan 4h ago

Life sentences and the death penalty aren’t effective deterrents either.

The people committing crimes with those potential outcomes don’t believe they’ll get caught and/or aren’t thinking rationally at a baseline.

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u/DSouT 4h ago

They are deterrents, if they were gone you don’t think more murders would be committed? Why do you think gangs use underage kids so much?

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u/FattyLivermore 4h ago edited 1h ago

I don't think so and, believe it or not, neither does the Department of Justice

Let's do a thought experiment - if murder was legal, would you kill people?

edit: the person I was talking with here blocked me so I can't respond. To everyone else - be excellent to each other, and party on dudes

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u/jonsteph 5h ago

Meadow muffins.

If you don't understand the desire for retribution you were never bullied as a child. Tit for tat is the love language of the lizard brain. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be expected to rise above such base behaviors, though. Better angels, after all.

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u/Latter_Painter_3616 5h ago

I was bullied extremely badly. I never wanted vengeance. I just didn’t understand their desire to cause hurt to others. And wanted them to see themselves in me when they were being cruel.

Sorry not helping me out here

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u/TheLazyD0G 6h ago

Death penalty cases should be so clear cut, there is no room for any appeal. They should be cheaper than life in prison. Last I checked, a rifle round is less than a dollar.

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u/Luciusvenator American Expat 6h ago

This isn't how reality works. There is no way to guarantee any of this. Just keep them in prison for life. No chance of executing an innocent and it changes nothing for the public, as the criminal is not free and can't harm anyone. There is truly absolutely no benefit to the death penalty. It achieves nothing that can't be achieved other ways without the risk of executing innocents and the state having the power to murder its citizens legally.

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u/ThatPancreatitisGuy 6h ago

I oppose the death penalty because there is always the risk we got it wrong, but your suggestion that prisoners can’t harm anyone is dead wrong. They can and do assault and murder other prisoners. They can assault and kill guards and other staff. And although rare they can escape and kill others. And yes, as I said that is rare, but death penalty proponents would argue it’s even rarer that we execute someone innocent. Ted Bundy killed three people after escaping, including a 12 year old girl. There’s something to be said for the certainty that they will never be able to harm anyone again they is strictly utilitarian in nature and not based on a desire for retribution. Personally, I think that’s outweighed by the risk of error but it’s not as clear cut as you’re making it out to be.

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u/TheLazyD0G 6h ago

There are certain cases there is no doubt. I think Patricia Allatorre case is one:

A neighbor’s surveillance camera captured Patricia, who was initially reported missing, getting into a white pickup late July 1, 2020. Conversations were later found on her Instagram account between her and a man insisting she meet him.

That man, identified as Cruz, was detained days later at his Inglewood home and described in detail how he killed the teen, according to court documents. He directed investigators to where he left her cellphone and the construction site where he dumped her body and set it on fire.

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u/FrenchFreedom888 6h ago

Happy Cake Day bro

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u/EidolonLives 6h ago

It's not a justice system, it's a legal system.

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u/Original_Contact_579 5h ago

Fantastic. Thank you for your stick your dick in reply.

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u/tweakingforjesus 7h ago

The people who make these decisions are white or powerful or both. They and their families have nothing to worry about.

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u/Original_Contact_579 6h ago

They don’t Jesus. But regular poor white folks do. Also they don’t have to be white to hold powerful positions. Let’s not turn this into a race battle oh all seeing one.

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u/tweakingforjesus 6h ago edited 6h ago

But race has and does play a role in who receives special treatment. We can’t ignore that reality because it is uncomfortable.

I’m one of the lucky ones. As a stupid 18 year old white boy I got busted by the local cops with a joint on me. This was back in the zero tolerance 80’s. I thought I was cooked. The white cop dropped it and ground it with his boot. He told me he was giving me a second chance and if he caught me again, I was going to jail. Then he hauled me back to the high school I had just left and told them we were just off campus. Never mentioned me having the joint in school to them. I got a day of in school suspension for being off campus during lunch instead of being expelled for drugs one month before graduation.

I sometimes wonder how a young African American kid would have been treated in that situation.

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u/Original_Contact_579 6h ago

Money, connections & fame is only things that gets you special treatment. Who’s uncomfortable, is that the new thing to say? I’m white I unfortunately know more about this subject than I want to. I was given no special treatment. Same court, same mandatory minimum, same cell, food, mace and handcuffs. They even broke my wrist, I said the word “no” and ended up on the floor in cuffs.

I must have missed the red carpet they lay out for the other white folks.

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u/tweakingforjesus 6h ago

It’s not 100% but it does exist. Read my edit that I wrote while you were responding.

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u/Original_Contact_579 5h ago

I read it, im not denying it existed or exists. Im saying that it doesn’t apply in the majority of cases. White folks make up quite a bit of incarcerated people just not higher per capita. But there are plenty in jail. It’s good you got a second chance from a cop, but usually it’s based on you not being a dick when they confront you, showing attrition, them not wanting to ruin your life. But This view of what would happen to an African American if they got stopped by the police is crazy man. They are people, and some of there people do stupid criminal things, just like every other race, If you act cool and comply they act cool. Ive seen videos where things have turned bad and there was never an instance of hey here is my ID and I’m sorry, or complying with being cuffed. If you know you could die doing the wrong thing, why would you act in way that could get you killed, the game is the game, I’m not justifying the officers lack of deescalation either, I’m just saying, a lot of people contribute to their own mess. But to point it to race alone imo is crazy.

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u/Frankly_Frank_ 7h ago

lol ok stop exaggerating it is absolutely easy not to end up in this situation. Why are you acting like it’s so easy to end up on death row…

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u/beermile 7h ago

I figure you don't necessarily have to do anything at all to be wrongly accused of a murder

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u/Original_Contact_579 7h ago

You ever been in a fist fight ? Ever drive a car thinking you were sober? Im talking about the public’s lust for harsh retribution, I’m not talking about death row that’s premeditated, I’m talking about just ending up in a city jail, that’s controlled by bloods, where they routinely throw boiling water/ oil on each other & stab each other over nothing. Where you can get beat savagely by 5 guys on a regular day. All while unconvicted.

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u/Frankly_Frank_ 7h ago

Ah yes the classic bring up something entirely different and unrelated from what was originally brought up so you can prop up the stupid statement made. I would never get in a fist fight because I ain’t stupid. And you would have to be brain dead to even attempt to drive knowing you had drinks because you think you are sober. If you had any kind of brain you would at least use it and not drive when you had drinks.

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u/Original_Contact_579 6h ago

Bro, I stuck with what I was saying the whole time, it’s in plain text, I never said it was easy to get to death row I was commenting on the need for retribution of the public and them not understanding what it truly is. It’s good you don’t do bad things. Cause you wouldn’t last two minutes in there. Also, if you reply to someone’s comment, that’s what you’re replying to. Something to think about. Alright fuck nuts

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u/Nice_Firm_Handsnake 7h ago edited 4h ago

On the other side of the Christian spectrum, you have people like Sister Helen Prejean who has devoted her life to abolishing the death penalty. She's an incredible woman and the closest thing to a living saint I'm aware of.

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u/gnomechompskey 5h ago edited 5h ago

Helen Prejean. I had the pleasure of being arrested once with her (and several other people). Someone told the cops who she was and they uncuffed and let her go to avoid the bad publicity. Hours later she was waiting for us when we got out with waters and sandwiches. A living Saint indeed.

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u/Regular-Novel-1965 10m ago

she sounds like a real homie

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u/veverkap 6h ago

I didn’t realize she was still alive. Amazing woman.

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u/phyrros 2h ago

On the other side of the Christian spectrum, you have people like Sister Helen Prejean who has devoted her life to abolishing the death penalty.

For better or worse, due to theological reasons the catholic church is strictly against any death penalty.

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u/SpaceTimeinFlux 6h ago

There are good christians, no doubt.

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u/BigPlunk 7h ago

Forgetting the rest, such as one of the 10 commandments being "thou shalt not kill"? Like how the death penalty requires killing? Hammurabi didn't author or participate the Bible, to my knowledge.

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u/All_Work_All_Play 6h ago

The command is actually 'thou shalt not murder'. Abrahamic religions all have some version of the death penalty for specific crimes/sins.

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u/BigPlunk 6h ago

Appreciate the correction, internet stranger! I'm just unwinding from a long day, blowing off steam and posting whatever nonsense is flipping around my brain and clearly my religious education is rusty.

I'll end by saying the death penalty involves the worst injustices imaginable in wrongful conviction scenarios and most of the civilised world agrees that it shouldn't exist. But hey, same applies to for-profit prisons and hospitals... Anyway, I'm Canadian and we've got our own pile of stupid up here. Have a good night, eh?

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u/George_the_poinsetta 5h ago

Tell me you're Canadian without telling me you're Canadian. First time commenting on reddit, I said sorry for something I got wrong. American person I was responding too couldn't believe I was apologizing, said it never happened to them before. Subsequently, I have learnt it is not a good idea to show weakness on reddit.

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u/SpaceTimeinFlux 6h ago

Such as collecting sticks on the sabbath

The Pentateuch is bat shit crazy and nobody should base their moral framework on it.

Also Moses didn't exist. fan fiction Hammurabi. You see these parallels a lot in Assyriology. That being the distinction from the other Caananite cities and kingdoms. as the Yahweh cult broke away from the larger polytheistic mythology, they used the old stories to help write the new ones.

The scribes among them would have been intimately familiar with Ziusudra, Gilgamesh, Utnapishtim, etc. They created their own version over generations. A new name for the patriarch. A new god (Yahweh) to dole out divine wrath, rather than the divine annoyance of Gilgamesh's Epic.

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u/VanceKelley Washington 3h ago

Also note that God doesn't exist.

Overwhelming evidence supports the theory that God didn't create man, instead men invented God as a way to influence and control people.

It has been said that organized religion is the greatest con ever: Give them 10% of your gross income while you are alive in exchange for a promise of a utopian afterlife. Nobody who falls for the con ever comes back afterward to say they were cheated because dead is just dead.

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u/SpaceTimeinFlux 3h ago

Digging deep into Caananite Polytheism just confirms what I suspected.

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u/Tinokotw 6h ago

It forbids murder not killing, but also the bible says that there must be at least 3 witnesses and the witnesses must be the ones killing the accussed if found guilty.

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u/Ritualistic 7h ago

Yes their entire religion is based on them being forgiven for their sin, but they love condemning others.

Forgiveness for me, not for thee.

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u/BIGGUS_dickus_sir Minnesota 6h ago

Ya just look at the subreddit for pastorarrested and notadragqueen

🤮

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u/mmmpeg Pennsylvania 6h ago

I’ll skip that one.

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u/SpaceTimeinFlux 6h ago

Modern Day Pharisees.

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u/SAGNUTZ Florida 5h ago

The literal gate-keepers of forgiveness as concept.

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u/Top-Decision-3528 7h ago

They don't care because he's not white

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u/8six7five3ohnyeeeine 7h ago

See him on the interstate.

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u/okieporvida 6h ago

He helped build the president’s estate

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u/Major-Woke 6h ago

That would be “White Jesus” too.

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u/KylerGreen 4h ago

Go on literally any thread about someone committing w/e awful crime. You will see countless redditors advocating for the death penalty, or maybe even more commonly, just shooting them in the head to save tax dollars.

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u/dont_disturb_the_cat 7h ago

White Jesus, as told by the American Bible Belt

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u/Anagoth9 6h ago

Which is funny since ostensibly the central theme of Christianity is about receiving mercy when it's undeserved. 

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u/justbrowsing0127 6h ago

Real Jesus would be horrified

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u/Jordandeanbaker 7h ago

Hi. Lots of us evangelicals are strongly opposed to the death penalty.

Not trying to start a debate. Just a friendly reminder that broad generalizations and stereotypes aren’t usually helpful or accurate when it comes to any large population.

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u/ladycommentsalot 7h ago

Sure; no culture is a monolith. It is worth noting that Evangelical support is substantially greater than unaffiliated, and other religious groups.

White evangelical Protestants are also the only religious group in which a plurality (51%) say the death penalty deters people from committing serious crimes. By comparison, about half as many Black Protestants (27%) believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent. Generally speaking, people with any religious affiliation are more likely than those without one to say that the threat of the death penalty deters serious crimes: 39% of affiliated adults say this, compared with 26% of the unaffiliated.

Large majorities in every religious group say there is some risk that an innocent person will be put to death. However, White evangelical Protestants are more likely than any other group analyzed to say there are adequate safeguards in place to ensure that no innocent person will be put to death, with three-in-ten taking this position.

Source

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u/leeflippingreene 6h ago

While you are correct these same evangelicals vote for politicians who keep these laws in place and not by a small majority.

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u/SpaceTimeinFlux 6h ago

If you're in a group that adheres to a specific doctrinal interpretation, which side is the "correct" one?

Seems like something that could cause a denominational schism.

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u/Jordandeanbaker 6h ago

It’s hard to have a denominational schism when evangelicalism isn’t a denomination, but rather an increasingly unhelpful term that is loosely applied to a subset of Protestantism.

From a doctrinal standpoint the term used to be a helpful way to refer to Christians who had a shared value for the characteristics found in Bebbington’s Quadrilateral (Biblicism (emphasis on the authority of Scripture); Crucicentricism (centrality of the atonement); Conversionism; and activism (e.g. in evangelism; on issues of social justice).

These days it has a stronger political connotation with very little doctrinal agreement to be found.

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u/Ickray 6h ago

Join a different team.

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u/Infamous-Guarantee70 6h ago

Evangelicals are not the reason we still have a death penalty nor are they explicitly the cause of it. China is the nation with the most atheists at minimum over 50% of the pop and also the most executions annually by far. We're talking under two dozen versus thousands. It's true that in the US more evangelicals support the death penalty more than US atheists do. But that's also a facet of their political leanings, most evangelicals are conservative. If you want to criticize conservatives do so, if you want to call evangelicals who support the death penalty hypocrites, that makes senses. But they are not the cause. The Catholic Church has been opposed to the death penalty for decades!

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u/Legendver2 California 6h ago

Evangelicals are the scum of the earth

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u/Cantgetabreaker 6h ago

To them they are forgiven by their magical thinking and absolved of their crimes. But anyone else not so much