r/TheBoys • u/MrSluagh • Jul 22 '24
Butcher was right. Season 4
Hughie had it backwards. It's the desensitization that made him sympathize with Victoria Neumann. Someone who has murder victims at least in the double digits, very conservatively counting only on-screen killings. And most of those were cold-blooded and for Machiavellian reasons. She had an understandable point of view, and deserves more sympathy than Homelander, who deserves more than none. Sure, she was manipulated, but there was no sign she wouldn't kill more innocent people given a reason. There isn't room in the world for a bulletproof blood-Magneto, unless maybe she's been conditioned from childhood to abhor all violence and devoted her life to medicine. If you had a good opportunity to kill Victoria Neumann, that would be the ethical thing to do.
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u/Mrpoindexter007 Jul 22 '24
Also she killed the CIA lady Billy was close to. Bet he didn’t let that go
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u/dancingbriefcase Ambrosius Jul 23 '24
Yeah in the comics he fucks her a lot. In the show I think it's implied that they used to date
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u/manurosadilla Jul 23 '24
Not really implied, more like straight up said that they used to have sex in bathrooms
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u/Main-Advice9055 Jul 23 '24
I mean, who's to say what's an implication and what's a euphemism, "sex in bathrooms" could mean a million things. /s
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u/bjtrdff Jul 23 '24
You keep saying that word implication - are these women in danger?
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u/Quacker-Jacker Jul 23 '24
Dang it! I forgot she killed Rainer, who had a husband and kids. Yeah, Butcher gave her what she deserved.
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u/I_might_be_weasel Jul 22 '24
I think they covered that pretty well already with Hughie forgiving A-Train.
And I believe Sun Tzu said something pretty applicable here, something along the lines of if you want your enemy to retreat, build them a golden bridge. As in, if Neuman/ A-Train wants to stop fighting you, let them stop fighting you.
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u/BouldersRoll Jul 23 '24 edited Jul 23 '24
This is also the kind of situation where we have to ask whether we're talking about a) what the show is telling us thematically vs b) what's reasonable and likely within the world of the show if it were real.
The show tells us thematically in no uncertain terms that Butcher killing Neuman is selfishly motivated, shortsighted, and evil. That we understand Butcher's reasoning makes it good writing, but it doesn't change that he's both being an antagonist and that the show has gone out of its way to establish his revenge arc as being selfish and shortsighted.
On the other hand, if we're not talking about the show as a written text, and instead as though it were real, then sure, it's totally reasonable that Butcher killed Neuman for pragmatic reasons, and it's near impossible to say what would have happened if he hadn't.
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u/NockerJoe Jul 23 '24
Both things can be true. Killing Neuman was ultimately the best solution but would have been unfeasible for them in their current situation and done by Butcher at the worst possible time.
That Butcher both had the means to kill Neuman so quickly and did it then without a followup plan is a good way to describe it. If this was part of a pragmatic action he would clearly be aware of the fact that they only had a small window to act and with powers that strong and the virus theres a realistic chance they could probably overwhelm Homelander given how close they got before.
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u/BouldersRoll Jul 23 '24
I don't think you understood my comment, because they can't really both be true.
From a storytelling perspective, what Butcher did was wrong and will - in order for the story to pay off - backfire or have some cost greater than any benefit. Whether that's a literal backfire contrivance, some critical sacrifice of his remaining humanity, or a combination of the two, who knows, but the story goes out of its way to prepare us for this kind of act being counterproductive and wrong.
From a perspective of the fictional world being "real," that's up to whatever debate people want to have about speculated practicalities. Sure, killing someone who's shown themselves to be duplicitous and murderous might be pragmatic.
But these are just two totally separate conversations.
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u/L0nelyPers0n Jul 23 '24
Wasn’t the backfire from killing her having it look like Singer set it up thus putting Homelander in charge of the White House?
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u/zarwinian Jul 23 '24
Yeah, it backfired immediately because Sage planned on Nueman dying. If she hadn't, the boys would have actually outplayed Sage, instead Butcher handed HL exactly what he wanted.
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u/ashton_4187744 Jul 23 '24
Butchers scorched earf is the only thing guaranteed to get them out of the way. A-train and neuman kindof have the same killing power. It doesnt make sense for butchers philosophy to allow a train to live, it just worked out in his favor. But the MOMENT nuemen became known as a super then her value to butcher droped to 0.
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u/Brier2027 Jul 23 '24
Hehe. Earf.
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u/spacedicksforlife Jul 23 '24
God put this here for me AND for you! Take advantage man. Take advantage.
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u/Ducky181 Jul 23 '24 edited Jul 23 '24
The famous military strategist known as Sun Tzu also indicated that “ an attack on the enemy should begin only after the enemy has no opportunity to either defend or counterattack”. An event that Butcher utilised perfectly.
In reality, Neuman had plenty of times to surrender, and avoid her countless killings. She wanted to stop fighting as she in essence lost. This is not someone who developed a different mindset. She would have continued her same ruthless behaviour if she was winning, it’s just her circumstances changed. While for A-train his entire mindset changed.
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u/hillswalker87 Jul 23 '24
this is an excellent point. A-train could have turned on the boys at any point, and ingratiated himself to HL. he chose not only to not do that but even went so far as to help them, which had a high probability of getting him killed.
he went good with the option to selfishly not to. that's a legit redemption.
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u/Ducky181 Jul 23 '24
Exactly. In particular when A-train circumstances really did not change. He could have easily still been an important and vital member of the seven like he has been for the previous decade.
Instead he choose to give the leak to Hughie, he choose to tell the Boys about the meeting, he choose to save Hughie, and mothers milk, and choose to directly intervene when the Depp, and black noir attacked the boys. Everyone of these actions placed his reputation, and his own life in danger.
In contrast, Neuman never showed any signs of changing her behaviour, beliefs and mindset. Only when her circumstances changed that led to her being politically trapped did she offer to assist the boys in return for security, not out of desire to seek amends.
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u/WebAlone3224 Jul 23 '24
That one typo made me imagine that whole fight with Johnny Depp instead of the Deep
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u/OneFierceBeerCoaster Jul 23 '24
Butcher and Depp as Jack Sparrow posturing in a room together exchanging, "Oi,"s.
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u/RanRanBobanis Jul 23 '24
The problem with that is she might change her mind if a better opportunity comes along. Butcher's way ensures she's not going be fighting or popping anyone's heads ever again, and that's just swell.
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u/I_might_be_weasel Jul 23 '24
If that's the case he should have killed Zoe too. And locked up Ryan. And killed Homelander with Soldier Boy when he had the chance.
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Jul 23 '24
He shouldn’t have locked up Ryan because homelander would’ve killed a million people to get him back. Zoe maybe and he definitely should’ve killed homelander with soldier boy
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u/I_might_be_weasel Jul 23 '24
Sounds like he's got to kill Ryan too.
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u/Timely-Use2919 Jul 23 '24
I think he just wants to kill homelander to prevent Ryan from having too much
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u/hillswalker87 Jul 23 '24
if Zoe knows what her mom has done she might not be so apt to follow in her footsteps.
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u/Athuanar Jul 23 '24
Not so sure on that one. The ease with which Zoe killed those CIA agents in the first ep of S4 made clear that she had been trained to do so and had enough experience with killing to be desensitized to it. That girl has killed a lot of people herself.
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u/JSevatar Jul 23 '24
This is correct. She will do whatever is most beneficial for her and her daughter, and as one of the most deadliest supes who can single handedly kill the whole team-- she needed to go.
She is too powerful and too unpredictable
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u/LeonIsMooi Jul 23 '24
Sun Tzu said that! And I’d say he knows a little more bout fighting than YOU do pal because he INVENTED it!
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u/Infamous-Lab-8136 Jul 22 '24
I took it to kind of be mocking that moment when our hero gives the great emotional speech about how if we just try to understand each other, hold hands, and sing Kumbaya together we can defeat any threat.
Only for the realist to do what Butcher did for the reasons you said. Hughie's not going to save us by winning hearts and minds.
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u/BoisTR Jul 22 '24
I actually think that Hughie’s speech about humanity not coming to fruition instantly was more so to go along with his overall suffering in season 4. I believe his words will ring true by the end of the series.
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u/chamoflag420 Jul 22 '24
Well i am putting my money on the fact that finale will be UE confronting Butcher in finale,considering butcher kills HL in 6th or 7th episode and he doesn't stop there and goes for the mass genocide route.
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u/dgroh0211 Jul 22 '24
i’d be utterly shocked if Homelander dies in any episode but the last. Butcher is gonna go too far before he kills Homelander and they both need to die presumably to each other or Hughie kills Butcher after he’s killed Homelander
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u/Accomplished-Aerie65 Jul 22 '24
I think it'd be the perfect time to use shock factor when it comes to killing homelander in episode 7
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u/theFastestMindAlive Jul 22 '24
Honestly, when Homelander gets the plague, I almost want Nina Simone's Sinnerman to be playing, at just the moment he realizes he's not going to escape.
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u/Grand_Theft_Motto Jul 23 '24
I randomly saw this comment and decided to look up the song because I've never heard of Nina Simone. Holy shit. How did I miss this?
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u/theFastestMindAlive Jul 23 '24
I first heard it on Person of Interest, during Elias's first episode. (That series is awesome BTW, the first season is slower with an interesting premise, with an episodic structure, but it slowly turns into a serial story.) I looked it up because of how it meshed with that episode.
And honestly, I think it be perfect for a moment Homelander realizes there is no escape for him, and he has nowhere to hide.
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u/Trollcifer Jul 23 '24
It goes unnoticed in quite a few movies. But once you know the song it sticks out big time when you hear it on-screen.
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u/Vegetable_Pin_9754 Jul 23 '24
Have you seen Hunt for the Wilderpeople? It’s got a great use of this song.
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u/CarnageEvoker Jul 22 '24
Calling it now that they take the Avengers Endgame route of killing Homelander in Episode 1, then focus on Butcher killing all super both good and bad all season
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u/Cyber-Knight47 Jul 23 '24
I’d want to see more Homelander.
I’m cool with them killing him in Episode 7 though, if they wanted to dedicate the final episode to Butchers supe genocide plan, plus they could still have him be part of the finale by having him be another vision in Butchers head.
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u/LordPopothedark You're The Real Heroes Jul 23 '24
or more than 8 episodes? but that is blasphemous these days
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u/nosargeitwasntme Jul 23 '24
Nah man! Homelander deserves to be taken out in a massive gorefest that builds up over episodes. He needs to do some of that lasering the crowd stuff before he gets taken out.
Can't have all that in the first episode.
Although they could kill him in the penultimate episode or so.
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u/Erooskilla Jul 22 '24
Doing only one episode on Butcher as the big bad would do him a disservice after all this time.
And by that I mean , I'm sure they'll integrate it into episodes along the way. But I want atleast 2 post homelander
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u/festive_fecal_feast Jul 23 '24
I agree. I could see an approach where the first half of the season is the Boys escaping + coming together to kill HL in Ep5. Then, that leaves the last 3 episodes to give Butcher's genocide plot room to breathe and set up the finale with higher stakes. If they just kill HL in ep7, and only leave the finale for Butcher, then I don't really see the genocide plot as nearly as significant as it should be.
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u/MrSluagh Jul 22 '24
I bet Homelander dies s05e01
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u/Such-Community6622 Jul 22 '24
That would be truly shocking, he's too compelling as the villain and I don't think there's enough juice without him to sustain 7 more episodes of conflict. I'm gonna guess it happens in episode 3, which will presumably drop at the same time, but at least gives him some final stuff to set in motion.
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u/chamoflag420 Jul 22 '24
You were shocked after S04 finale right? Trust me ,my gut says there will be more shocks in next season.One of them is HL dying the most humiliating death possible,the milk he drinks from Firecracker might have a bad effect on HL but thats just a theory of mine so lets see.
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u/Dobey2013 Jul 23 '24 edited Jul 23 '24
I’m team “sage manufacturing a more sinister supe virus” being transmitted by the ‘cracker titty milk
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u/bunchedupwalrus Jul 22 '24
They were flagging pretty hard that it might be some new version of the plague, I thought
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u/Thezedword4 Jul 22 '24
She wasn't sick with the supe virus. She was suffering the side effects of all the drugs she's taking to lactate. It was mentioned a few times this season the drugs cause issues with the heart.
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u/bunchedupwalrus Jul 23 '24
That is what she said yes, but I really don’t think it’s true here. Just a red herring. The parallels are too much. Maybe she wants it to be true, or is just afraid of what will happen if her breast milk is seen as tainted to HL.
I know coughing can be a side effect of heart failure, fluid in the lungs, but anything more than a slight fever is pretty rare, and she looked pretty flushed and remarked on it. Guess we’ll find out next season but I bet it’s a low grade slow burn variant, some third parties hail mary.
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u/YogoWafelPL Jul 22 '24
If you read the comics then HL is definitely dying in the second part of season 5 but before Butcher. In the end the story is Butcher vs Hughie.
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u/dgroh0211 Jul 22 '24
they have strayed from the comics. but i also think we’re gonna see psycho HL before he dies, yknow the one mowing down a whole crowd full of innocent people and that butcher and HL will both die in the last episode. unless ik there’s been rumblings about the finale to be a movie
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u/ScottSterling77 Jul 23 '24
That would be a piss-take. Waiting two years for S5, only to be blue-balled and wait another year or two for a fucking film.
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u/Flat-Leadership2364 Jul 22 '24
I think they'll do the Homelander vs Black Noir fight from the comics with Ryan vs Homelander. Butcher comes in and finishes off a mortally wounded Homelander, see Ryan's body and decide to release the virus on the earth forcing the Boys to try and stop him.
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u/chamoflag420 Jul 22 '24
And to add to that.....i think there is a pretty high chance we get to see Ryan ending up siding with Soldier Boy cause Ryan aint on terms with both of his fathers.
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u/Flat-Leadership2364 Jul 22 '24
Shit soldier boy would be the cool grandpa teaching ryan how to be a hero, hopefully without the racism
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u/chamoflag420 Jul 22 '24
Soldier boy can have a good arc if he sides with ryan,i think there will be 3 groups,one will be butcher,2nd will be HL and his seven,3rd being ryan and SB,but my understanding comes as to how will ryan and SB meet?I really cant seem to come from S04 finale as to how Ryan ends up meeting SB but maybe i am overthinking lmfao
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u/Mr_Gaslight Jul 22 '24
I would love the Deep trying to rescue Homelander but utterly cack-handing it in an Inspector Clouseau sort of way.
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u/uoefo Jul 22 '24
yeah thats what ive been thinking too. Could be as early as episode 4, theres still PLENTY of threats after that. Soldier boy, ryan, and BUTCHER. Like theres no way butcher will be a pure good guy next season, no, hes gonna be treated as another, maybe not villain for the first half, but antagonist. I wouldnt be at all surprised if homelander dies early, only for butcher to go absolutely insane and go on a genocial spree, which the boys have to stop. Hes started his villain arc this season, next will build on it, mark my words
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u/Yurus Jul 23 '24
Butcher might kill HL before the last episode but might still live in his brain or something
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u/Difficult-Bedroom-28 Jul 22 '24
Agreed. His speech will age perfectly by the end of the series and i think OP misunderstood the point. At the end of the day, the cycle of violence never ends and Hughie was right in calling it out. It never fixes anything
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u/BoisTR Jul 22 '24
That speech along with bringing Soldier Boy back into the fold tells me they’re going to go through with depowering Homelander and having him put away for life in a max security prison as the ending. That’s where my current theory is at, but could change over time. Can’t believe we gotta wait 2 years to find out.
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u/Dannydevitz Jul 22 '24
That's what I'm hoping for. Leave Homelander alive but as a human. I'm sure it won't be the case, and why wouldn't they kill off the main antagonist. He's just an incredible character played by an incredible actor. If they keep the boys universe going with spin offs, they might wanna catch up with Homelander at some point.
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u/BoisTR Jul 22 '24
I could not agree more. Conversations between characters and a depowered Homelander behind bars could make some for some incredible scenes in the future. We already know based on the current production schedule that The Boys Mexico won’t release till after The Boys season 5. So unless the Mexico show is a prequel, we are still getting content in this universe post The Boys arc.
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u/Jaydeekay80 Jul 22 '24
Deadpool killing Francis during Colossus’s speech at the end of the 1st Deadpool movie comes to mind here
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u/Starrk10 Annie January Jul 22 '24
Yup. First thing to come to mind that confirmed I was about to watch Victoria die.
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u/freeenlightenment Jul 23 '24 edited Jul 23 '24
Kind of like how everything is super perfect at the end because of goodness/togetherness/forgiveness/whatnot in Disney/Marvel movies.
I was actually dumbfounded with that speech… just a few minutes later, Butcher reminded me what I am watching for good measure.
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u/MarthaWayneKent Jul 22 '24
It’s funny that that’s your takeaway when Hughie was doing the most pragmatic thing one could do, and it was Butcher who let his moral code override his reason.
But that may be because we’re invoking two different senses of the word “realist”. Hughie was being a realist in the sense of establishing a pragmatic alliance between the boys and her (albeit motivated by his own ideals), and Butcher was a realist in the sense of being a cynic and/or doomer about Supes as a whole.
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u/hemareddit Jul 23 '24
Butcher‘s arc has actually been interesting this season. He took the high road more often than not, it’s no coincidence that the moral failings some of the other members of the Boys are highlighted.
It was an arc where if someone’s fucked up enough times, they become wise in that they know exactly what’s the worst thing to do, and just maybe they can find the strength not do it.
Mallory’s death was framed as a tragedy that caused Butcher’s efforts to redeem himself to crumble.
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u/Aggressive-Goose-189 Jul 22 '24
But Hughie has saved people that way. Butcher has saved others his way. I think the only way we get saved is a combination of the Angel and the Devil
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u/PR0MAN1 Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
It's like how in real life Democrats go "we just want to reach a bipartisan consensus on the issue. We wanna work with Republicans on this bill." It's like, no, you (at least on paper, not in reality) have diametrically opposing views. You cannot and should not work together on anything
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u/thankyoubasedgod222 Jul 22 '24
A bit unrelated but yup that’s exactly why the two party system gotta go !!
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u/Csjustin8032 Jul 23 '24
This is the REAL world. We GOTTA do at least a little genocide, sweaty. Be realistic
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u/Sherry_Cat13 Jul 22 '24
You are wrong and it is the thesis of the show that you are wrong. That is why what Butcher did was as villainous as it could possibly be.
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u/ScorpionTDC Jul 24 '24
It definitely could’ve been more villainous (murdering Zoe. Especially murdering Annie and Kimiko. Etc.) He’s not completely past the moral event horizon yet since Neuman was a thoroughly awful human being who honestly did have this coming twenty times over (even if it’s still pretty horrific to see him do that to another human being period), though he certainly seems on track to race past it next season. But I don’t think it’s 100% impossible for him to get a little tiny bit of redemption at the end either.
That said, it was insanely short sighted, stupid, brash, emotional, idiotic decision that fucked the whole country and countless people over. It’s actually insane seeing anyone try to argue murdering Neuman was the smart choice.
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u/Sun_flower_king Jul 22 '24
Definitely disagree that his speech was mocking. The Boys are not the justice system. Just because someone has killed people doesn't make it "just" for them to be killed, and more importantly, there is no justice in a group of vigilantes playing judge jury and executioner. Hughie's speech was an almost meta moment recognizing this basic fact about the Boys - no matter how much we like watching them fuck up evil people, we (the viewers) should never confuse the violence the Boys use to accomplish their goals with genuine Justice.
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Jul 22 '24
Even if Neuman was sincere, how can one blame anyone for not wanting to take the risk of getting their head popped? She has a history switching sides when it serves her.
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Jul 22 '24
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u/EquivalentSnap Cunt Jul 22 '24
Crazy how strong those tentacles were like she stopped homelanders blasts with her eyes, bullets bounce of her and acid does nothing
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u/Trox92 Jul 22 '24
Home lander did a gentle zap to prove she was a sup
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u/Drugs-Cheetos-jerkin Jul 22 '24
Presumably, since it’s really impossible to tell at what strength his beams are
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u/bigtec1993 Jul 23 '24
It was absolutely his intent to control the strength of the beams. He was trying to out her as a supe, not murder her on TV.
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u/hotdogaholic Jul 23 '24
i dont think her eyes were stopping HL.
i posit that he just gave her a quick zap to prove she was a supe, and then she tried to pop his head but couldn't.....u can see her eyes get cloudy.
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u/NoX2142 Billy Jul 23 '24
I think the eyes are just her powers activating and she maybe just fortified herself against the laser blast.. Even HL would have had a nosebleed at best if she actually tried to pop him. Maybe her powers are just automatic in self-preservation vs when on the offence?
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u/sliferra Jul 23 '24
I took it as just an automatic reaction to her power activating or whatever to save her. Don’t think she tried to pop homelander, didn’t it take a while for her to pop someone? Or am I misremembering
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u/ZADEXON Jul 23 '24
I hated though the whole “morality” of using Neumann. Like she’s an informant, it ain’t about morals, nobody in law enforcement goes, “hey! This dude can’t be our informant he capped a few dudes” like nah it’s about getting the dude higher up which in this case is Homelander. The problem was that she could pop any one of them at any second and wasn’t reliable which for some reason nobody seemed to focus on.
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u/ItsAmerico Soldier Boy Jul 22 '24
And working with The Boys best serves her. Homelander is going to kill her. There’s no maybe about it. He’s said he’d do awful things to her daughter when she was still on his side. There is no end to this with him that ends well for her.
And what’s the alternative? Fucking genocide lol? Neuman wants Homelander dead. That is the best thing for her. She would do anything for her daughter’s safety. While she might betray them after… so what? As long as Homelanders dead you deal with that after. No ones under the illusion she isn’t a risk. The point is what options do they have?
Butcher absolutely is in the wrong and fucked everything up. Nothing he is doing is a better alternative. He’s going to commit genocide. He killed the only alternative they know of and actually helped Homelander. Killing Neuman gave them what they needed to stage the coup.
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u/Invincidude Jul 24 '24
Whether Newman is dead or in hiding (which was her plan) it doesn't change the coup. Her being alive doesn't mean they don't get the tape of Singer admitting to ordering the death of an American citizen, which gets him removed from office.
Which doesn't give any aid to Newman since she's in hiding, and once they realize the VP is gone/presumed dead, it still passes to the speaker.
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u/PhysicalTry2021 Jul 23 '24
It feels like nobody watched the season, we have been trusting A train.... its obvious homelander can't be dealt with alone, noway people think what butcher did is right.
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Jul 23 '24
That's the thing, butcher isn't justified but it's Kessler at the wheel now.
Neuman just got what was coming to her. I think it's fair to say she made her bed.
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u/TheDarkWarriorBlake Jul 22 '24
Hughie is right in the sense that violence only breeds more violence, like her daughter might never come back into the show but she is not going to be a pleasant person as she grows up and will continue the cycle since that seems to be the main use of her powers. Victoria needs to answer for her crimes and I think that was the outcome they were going for as long as Zoe was safe.
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u/Dino-arino Jul 23 '24
The daughter isn’t innocent, she instinctively ate the face of atleast 3 people without prompt.
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u/cussbot123 Jul 23 '24
Butcher should have killer her too, u dont leave traces that can haunt you back
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u/thetyler83 Jul 23 '24
You're right but on the other hand, Butcher isn't planning on living much longer.
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u/Cautious-String7076 Jul 22 '24
But they had won. They stopped the assassination. Homelander was a wreck. They had the full support of the president and vice president. To top it off, they had what was likely the second most powerful supe on their side. And in an instant, Butcher gave it all away, and now they’re all captured or fleeing from both Homelander and the government.
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u/ringlord_1 Jul 22 '24
What makes you think Neuman remains with them. Homelander threatens Zoe and Victoria pops the head of each and everyone on The Boys side.
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u/ARTIFICIAL_SAPIENCE Jul 22 '24
They have the ability to get Zoe where Homelander can't find her. This is demonstrably possible.
And then they just need to use Neuman quick by having her testify against Homelander. Don't even need to take a long time to accomplish that. Start with a recorded testimony.
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u/bombamdillo Jul 22 '24
Boys couldn’t even hide themselves lol
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u/aspiring_scientist97 Jul 22 '24
That was after the government was taken over, even with all the surveillance at vought the government can sneak someone out of Homelander's sight for at least as long as the antisupe laws to become a reality.
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u/umc_thunder72 Jul 22 '24
That's because the boys have to be in a position where they're constantly able to go on the attack if required, they aren't playing defense. Zoe on the other hand would be in some deep hidden hole, likely not even in America.
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u/Due-Display-3113 Jul 22 '24
What good does that do? Do you think Homelander would just turn himself in? They would be better off to get Homelander on their side or neutral while they figure out a surefire way to kill him. If they piss him him off without a way to stop him you will have a civil war of the super against the government that would cause massive damage and possibly end in defeat for the government.
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u/ARTIFICIAL_SAPIENCE Jul 22 '24
Homelander was literally bawling on the floor when he thought he lost. He's not going to have a super army if he doesn't have public support. There's at least two supers we already know of with his potential, so the supers can take him en mass.
But the most likely outcome is his ass finds a mirror and lobotomizes himself with his own eyebeams. He wants to be loved and adored. And if he's hated, he's done.
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u/Due-Display-3113 Jul 22 '24
He can fly most supes can't. He can also fly faster than any other supes we have seen so far. If he started flying and leveling cities with his lasers he could cause massive damage and it would be near impossible for other supes to pay a hand on him.
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u/infamousDiego Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 23 '24
Godolkin has a problem with students flying out of dorm windows, so it's not too rare. It at least seems common among the most powerful, or maybe richest, supes.
I wonder if they gave different qualities of V depending on demographics.
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u/Such-Community6622 Jul 22 '24
Sure, I think it's pretty evident he can probably kill everyone and maybe end the world at any time, but that's not what he wants. Despite every effort what he still craves is the adoration and respect of the masses. If he didn't want that, Sage and the world of politics would have no value to him, but it very much does.
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u/L0nelyPers0n Jul 23 '24
New Noir, Starlight, and Ryan can fly. Stormfromt was able to fly. Sam can super jump so it’s possible he can fly if he figures it out seeing how Luke (Golden Boy) could fly. That’s just the main ones that were shown. GOD U had more that weren’t named.
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u/SnarkyBacterium Jul 22 '24
Neuman agreed to the deal, and at this point the whole premise of the deal itself is made on faith and a willingness to be a better person. Neuman was never going back to Homelander no matter what: he's already threatened Zoe while Neuman was his ally, she knows the erratic man-child will hold a grudge and can't be trusted to keep her daughter safe. He outed her as a supe because he got pouty over a fight with Ryan, anything could set the guy off on her or Zoe.
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u/Accomplished-Aerie65 Jul 22 '24
The whole point of the deal was to get Zoe out of homelander's reach, and once neuman didn't have to worry about blackmail or threats she could help the boys to the best of her ability. It was genuinely a good deal, and neuman wouldn't have betrayed them
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u/RanRanBobanis Jul 23 '24
She literally betrayed every associate she ever worked with in the show.
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u/pup_mercury Jul 22 '24
If Neuman thought that was possible she would have done it. Someone like her would only side with The Boys when Homelander isn't a option
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u/Fercoo Jul 22 '24
Even if a Neuman betrayal happened after everything, her death gave the supes the win. The president got framed, and public perception got shifted to their side.
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Jul 22 '24
This is part of Butcher's arch. Him being the remaining villain or big boss.
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u/MiserableScholar Jul 22 '24
Eh I think he'll be a grittier Thor from endgame-style arc. Pretty strong protagonist who lost their way and will have his own journey (killing supes and stuff) before ultimately reuniting with the boys and face off against homelander. Toss in a self sacrifice ala iron man and that's a good send off imo
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u/nosmelc Jul 22 '24
Sage would have released the information on the President and VP Neumann in any case to put her guy into office.
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u/Low_Cup_2659 Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
You really think everything would have turned out differently just by Neumann being alive? Also, I think what people are saying is not that unlikely; if Neumann saw it as being the beneficial path forward/keeping her daughter safe by teaming up with homelander again, I wouldnt be surprised if she would. Working with someone who switched sides out of necessity really, having an insta kill switch on you does sound a bit unsettling to me …
I still wouldve wanted Neumann alive/protected personally, but I cannot say I dont see butcher‘s point in the slightest.
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u/KiratheRenegade Jul 22 '24
She was simply too dangerous to be left alive.
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u/unorganized_mime Jul 23 '24
All Homelander would have to do is swoop down and hold her daughter hostage. Then she’d pop all their heads off to save her daughter. She needed to go
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u/IndianKiwi Jul 23 '24
Homelander could just lazer all of them. He doesn't need Neumann
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u/DucksMatter Jul 23 '24
People seem to forget that Butcher hates supes. He wants them all dead. It doesn’t matter who or what it is. He even has resentment for Kimiko and Annie. Stating Kimiko is a “good weapon” that’s about it. If they got in his way he for sure would take them out if he had the opportunity. Hell he shot Annie twice when she was dating Hughie. He doesn’t give a shit. I don’t get how people have somehow forgotten that.
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u/DroppinDueces45 Jul 26 '24
Only hole is that he stopped soldier boy from attacking / killing homelander to protect Ryan. Which, as much as I love the show, very dislike how that was written.
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u/MooseHapney Jul 22 '24
It’s definitely not the ethical thing to do. It’s a decision that is potentially the “safest” thing to do in that situation. But it’s not the ethical thing to do.
I personally think it’s not the strategic thing to have killed her.
Neuman could have killed the entire room if she wanted at any time. She never did because they had dirt on her and could never be sure it wouldn’t leak. However in that moment she was already revealed and her world unraveled. She needed the Boys so she wasn’t going to move against them.
Neuman would have been quintessential in bring down vaught and Homelander. Now it’s 3 steps back.
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u/MGD109 Jul 22 '24
See I kind of disagree. Now don't get me wrong Neuman was extremely dangerous and had committed a lot of crimes that she deserved to be punished for.
But this wasn't the right time. She was literally offering them their best opportunity to actually win this war. Now was the time to be pragmatic. After the war is over, we can start asking all the questions about what is going to happen to her.
Also I kind of don't think Neuman would be that impossible to imprison. Sure she's extremely dangerous, but from what we've seen her powers have a key weakness in that she needs to actually see her targets for them to work. She could be imprisoned, just by ensuring she was blindfolded and locking her in a room sturdy enough to handle her.
Now of course getting to that situation would be harder and it might be more moral to just kill her, rather than sending people to their deaths to try to capture her.
But the biggest thing I disagree with, is I don't think Butcher killed Neuman out of morals or justice or even personal animosity. He killed her cause she's a Supe and he's now embraced the part of him that says all Supe's have to die.
Hence why he dragged it out as long as he did and killed her in such an utterly brutal manner.
Really I'd argue the guy only didn't kill Kimiko and Annie out of lingering personal feelings for the two of them, he was certainly happy for them in that scene. He's already committed to a pat that signs both their death warrants.
I predict that going forwards if he sees a Supe he's going to try to kill them. It doesn't matter who they are, or what they've done or what they haven't done. He's decided the part of him that believes the world is better without them is right, and that's the path he will now go down.
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u/Edmontonthrw Jul 22 '24
They kind of retconned the her needing to see people thing when she made everyone at the farm get a nose bleed at once before she had entered the room.
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u/MGD109 Jul 22 '24
Yeah, they kind of did. It was established as a weakness all the way back in season three during her fight with Tony. And it was brought back in her death, with Butcher deliberately covering her eyes as his opening attack.
I guess they decided that scene at the farmhouse was simply too cool not to include even if it went against the previously established rules of how her powers worked.
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u/NoX2142 Billy Jul 23 '24
Yeah basically. Gives her a menacing intro to the scene but in reality since then they kept it at just her having to have line of sight. Otherwise she'd have burst all the chicken and sheep at once.
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u/blackcaster Jul 23 '24
She can make everyone's nose bleed with out eye sight but she can't pop their heads unless she locks on is hwo i interpereted it
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u/ItsAmerico Soldier Boy Jul 22 '24
She could see them still. She was in the stairs there looked into the room.
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Jul 22 '24
Unironically, Butcher is giving Homelander everything he wants.
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u/MGD109 Jul 23 '24
Yeah. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if next season his activities actually nets Homelander some good PR. He finally has a dangerous supervillain on the lose he can use to justify himself.
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u/rsorin Jul 22 '24
She was literally offering them their best opportunity to actually win this war.
Tbf, what she had to offer them?
She wasn't getting sworn in, she was running away with her daugther.
The only thing Hughie asked was "when the time come, you'll help us". No clue how she would help them, since she's clearly weaker than Homelander and had no political power anymods.
I predict that going forwards if he sees a Supe he's going to try to kill them.
I think so too, but he didn't kill Zoey. I think next season it will be clearer who the "enemy supes" are.
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u/JustARandomUserNow Jul 22 '24
I kinda agree. She was a cold blooded killer. I’m not shedding tears over Vogelbaum or Adana popping, but did Susan deserve it? Or Neumans aid, the congress dude or even Shockwave?
If there’s a threat, you neutralise it. If she had any other path, I think she’d have taken it. All it would take is for her to take it thick with the Boys and the popping begins anew.
But she could’ve been a valuable asset for The Boys.
It’s ironic Butcher didn’t have this change of heart when Soldier Boy was a shade away from topping Homelander.
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u/Kaoshosh Jul 23 '24
She's too volatile to be an asset. She flips on her allies in a second.
Butcher did the right thing.
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u/identitycrisis-again Jul 22 '24
Neuman was way too dangerous and too much of a snake to be left alive.
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u/NoX2142 Billy Jul 23 '24
She'll turn against them again the second she gets the chance or feels Zoe, Stan or Sameer threatened.
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u/Space_Gemini_24 Jul 23 '24
I think it was a massive mistake, she was an impressive asset that could help in the coming war with a good motivator (the rogue part of the CIA could have sheltered Zoe and Sameer and hold both hostage in the worst case).
You basically had the perfect team-up with Hughie if he had taken perm V, they teleport in, she pops off a head or two and then disappear without a trace.
Was she dangerous, ofc but she had predictable intentions and was clearly in the ropes when Butcher killed her.
A tragic waste both in and out of the story.
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u/wolvesarewildthings Jul 23 '24
Regardless of his reasons, I was just shouting, "Justice for Rayner" because my homie deserved better. She was a good woman. Literally one of the only characters with integrity in factz who didn't deserve to die like that AT ALL. Neither did Vic's poor childhood friend who suffered immensely before death. Neuman was looking out for Neuman from beginning to end. And that's how her saga ends. It was a long time coming.
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u/Arbiter008 Jul 22 '24
I wanted Neuman dead since forever.
Feel bad for Sameer and their child, though.
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u/Astrium6 Jul 22 '24
I think it’s pretty funny that Butcher messed up their shot at Homelander in the S3 finale and everyone complained about it endlessly and now Butcher has fucked their shot at Homelander again in the S4 finale and half the sub thinks he’s right.
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u/Gojira5400 Jul 22 '24
What was the shot in S4? Homelander can still destroy the world any moment he wants too. Neumann wasn't going to do anything against Homelander, no blackmail would have worked, no politics, no laws. S3 was different because they had Homelander dead to rights but all fucked up royally.
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u/JarifSA Jul 22 '24
Seriously people think we are still in season 1 or 2. They think blackmail and politics are going to defeat Homelander. They literally declared martial law with supes as police. The only way to win now is physically. That's the entire point why we are seeing stronger supes now with new Annie, Sam, Ryan, Cate, etc. Neuman would've close to useless. Her MAIN motivation was staying alive with her daughter therefore she has no allegiance to The Boys or actually doing the right thing. It's why she betrayed Edgar, Homelander, and Hughie. She is her own side forever.
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u/Ed_Durr Jul 23 '24
Right, only way to defeat Homelander is to kill him. The best candidates for that are Soldier Boy, Ryan, Kesslerized Butcher, and the virus.
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u/HappyChilmore Jul 23 '24
There's also Cate, Sam and Marie, who all potentially have what it takes to take out homelander.
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u/All_this_hype Jul 23 '24
It's Walter White all over again. Half the fanbase thinks he's dangerous, selfish and shortsighted, the other half defends him as reasonable and thinks he's taken the best course of action.
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u/agamtt Jul 23 '24
Two things can be true at the same time. Should Neuman have died for everything she’s done? Yes. Did Butcher fuck up the plans and give Homelander what he wanted by killing her? Yes.
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u/Melo98 Jul 22 '24
This type of discussion is interesting because if you boil it down it's basically the trolley problem all over again lol. But I disagree that this was the message of the scene. Kripke himself commented on how the death of Neuman is exactly what turns Homelander into basically the president, so it's an act that is like cutting an hydra's head. And it's definitely a decision that will make Butcher as evil as he gets from now on.
So in that sense I don't think the show is that cynical as saying that Hughie's being dumb for trying to be human, or that it's not realistic.
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u/RampantTyr Jul 22 '24
When you have the opportunity to bring in an asset alive, you do so. Especially when you have leverage over them. With the headpopper in protective custody you have a high level witness that can kill Vought the company.
Killing her was stupid from a strategic standpoint and that became apparent almost immediately.
Also, narratively it makes no sense for them to give up killing her. She could most likely be killed with anti tank weaponry or knocked out with Halothane.
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u/dingleberry314 Jul 23 '24
This argument completely overlooks that Neumann killed dozens of innocent people for her own gain and only gave herself up because she felt her family was in danger. Not to mention her power is way too OP, it doesn't matter if the boys have leverage over her she could easily pop everyone's head save Kimiko.
Vought's not even the enemy anymore, everyone there is pretty dead aside from the Seven.
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u/PlanetFirth Jul 23 '24
"There isn't room in the world for a blood magneto" Marie has entered the chat
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u/Wiscos Jul 22 '24
I wish she would have made an attempt to pop homelander’s head, and see how awkward/funny that could have been.
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Jul 23 '24
They've all murdered people. Pot calling the kettle black at this point.
The shapeshifter was right. Everyone thinks they're the hero of their own story. They all feel justified, which is what you are gonna do: justify all their kills.
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u/Circaninetysix Jul 22 '24
I have also seen people point out she betrayed her own father. How could The Boys ever trust someone like her? They couldn't even if they wanted to, and Butcher knew she and her powers were too dangerous to be kept around.
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u/ItsAmerico Soldier Boy Jul 22 '24
Yeah because Butcher has totally never betrayed his team before lol
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u/Holdthecoldone Jul 23 '24
Nobody in the boys actually trust him anymore. Half the time he either forces his way in the operations or MM reluctantly brings him on. He also doesn’t randomly kill innocent people. Butcher has done some evil shit (explode that house not knowing if homelander would actually save the baby) but in general if I was in a locked room I’d rather be in one with butcher than neuman
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u/ItsAmerico Soldier Boy Jul 23 '24
For sure. But that’s not the choice The Boys were given. It was how do we stop Homelander?
Victoria, a supe who can control blood is absolutely a possible weapon to stop Homelander, a man full of blood. There is no reason not to try, as MM roughly says, “Fuck it. We’re probably dead anyway.” They don’t really have a ton of options outside genocide and I don’t blame them for being hesitant on that.
Butcher isn’t right. They should risk it, because the alternative is doing nothing. They’ve got no leverage on Victoria, she can flat out kill them all and nothing bad will happen to her from it. Shit it’s probably what Homelander would have happen to them next. He’s already murdered half his company and sent a hit squad for the boys.
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u/Significant-Fall2792 Jul 22 '24
What gets me, is butchers powers. Why is his powers different from real v compared to temp-v?
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u/serendipity_aey Jul 22 '24
These aren’t his powers, they seem to be cancer’s v powers in-universe. They are his tumors powers. Someone else with cancer in diabolical had their cancer get the same powers, as well as the bunny on the farm (who had a temp v iv drip, likely had cancer, then drank some perm v from the floor).
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u/flash-tractor Jul 22 '24
It's not just Butcher with cancer tentacles after taking V24.
Remember the escaped rabbit on the farm? The rabbit had the same thing happen. Butcher stomps that rabbit to death in the farm episode.
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u/Significant-Fall2792 Jul 22 '24
Tbh I didn't put two and two together. That's what happens when you are distracted while watching a show lol. I haven't seen diabolical so I didn't know the other part.
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u/flash-tractor Jul 22 '24
My comment intentionally left out the Diabolical plot line. The farm episode I mentioned was in s4, when they took Stan Edgar to his farm and discovered the animal experiments.
One of the rabbit experiments was marked V24, and it had escaped. Butcher later discovered the rabbit while searching for Sameer, and it popped out the same type of tentacles before Butcher stomped the rabbit to death.
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u/Significant-Fall2792 Jul 22 '24
Yeah I guess I mistook that for being a byproduct of the manufactured disease they were testing.
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u/hemareddit Jul 23 '24
If you had a good opportunity to kill Victoria Neumann, that would be the ethical thing to do.
Not if it costs your one and only shot at Homelander though.
Like if they knew Butcher could just tear Neumann paper like that, that would have changed the calculus…somewhat.
Just from a resource management point of view though, it’s much better to save the virus for Homelander and mean while getting Neumann on your side to check HL and Vought’s growing influence while you perfect the virus.
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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 Jul 23 '24
Everyone in the boys has blood on their hands.
The issue isn't of Newman deserved it. The issue is was she a useful ally that could safely be used, and she was. She was giving her daughter's safety to the boys, that makes her unquestionably loyal to them as she knows the boys will kill Zoey if she turns on them.
If it was just about who deserved to be killed due to past murders then pretty much everyone on the boys except Hughie, Annie, and MM all deserve death. Frenchie has murdered dozens, kamiko has likely murdered over a hundred. Butcher has murdered in cold blood a number of times.
If Newman deserved it so much then why doesn't Butcher? Or Kamiko? She literally had a whole "learning to love myself via wanton murder" plot arc last season.
Killing Newman was a clear mistake. That's why everything went to absolute shit after. The boys getting arrested, America falling to the supe fascists, it's all because Butcher made a really stupid decision.
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u/BouncingJellyBall Jul 23 '24
Don’t forget Neuman has betrayed twice for her daughter at this point. First Edgar, then HL. She’s too much of a wild card
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